You can go both ways. Vaheguru created it. For us even air has no form but then neither does the atma. Does it have a form for Vaheguru? Probably. Is it Nirgun for Vaheguru? Yes, no-arguments can be made both ways. Is it Nirgun for us? Yes, just like our intelligence.
I always thought that line was referring to religious people who always fight about which religion is true. That they call each other’s religions false but don't even bother looking into them. If they had then they would’ve noticed how similar they are lololol.
That's stretching it but truth be told, the context here is to always introspect about why you believe what you believe and whether your daily actions reflect whatever you believe.
What is equally laughable is how alleged conversion sites which seek to convert Sikhs, end up using the same fallacies. And, as usual, you have Sikhs trying to shout them down; expending valuable energy on something which is false from the start.
The world is transient lol do u think it is permanent? Their is nothing wrong with highlighting that. Non dualism is core to Sikhi, this article does not contradict that. Adi Shankaracharya provided one framework for understanding non-dualism. Sikhi does indeed transcend this framework (and lots of the same sampardaics dont even utilise fully + nothing can capture the entire aspects of Vaheguru) but aspects of the framework are useful for understanding the world. Truth is One, people look at it from different perspectives. One should be not so quick to dismiss, in fact you cannot dismiss it with such hasty anti-intellectualism.
With all due respect to your "debunking prowess" maybe consider familiarizing yourself with Gurmat ontology before making a stand for Shankaracharya's hollow rhetoric.
The world is transient for Manmukhs because they envision it as ontologically separate from the One, but in Sikh Ontology, this world, if correctly perceived, is not false, but true.
Giani Balwant Singh Kothaguru states the following:
"According to the teachings of the Guru Granth Sahib, Maya is not independent; it is subordinate to Waheguru and is in accordance to his Huqam."
For Gurmukhs, Maya is a slave to them, so that they can engage in Dharm. However, if we believe in the idea of emanation, then this world is not false or even transient [if seen properly].
There can be nothing more manifest and luminous, than Existence, which is self-existing, and also existentiates all [contingent] essences; Existence is self-subsistent, and also renders all others subsistent. Being subsistent in itself, it needs no cause for its subsistence, albeit everything else is dependent upon existence for its subsistence and reality. It is existence that bestows reality upon all things, without itself deriving its reality from any foreign source.
Therefore, this world cannot be intrinsically false or even transient. Even Gurbānī elaborates:
Introspectively immerse in Jap and Salāhé [eulogical praise] of the One. Only supplicatingly invoke the One, and only the One should the heart-mind desire. Endlessly cantilate the excellencies of the One, and mentally and physically ruminate on the One Bhagvant [Supreme Master]. All of Creation is a manifestation of the One Hari [the destroyer of spiritual impediments]. The ultimate realized form of Prabhu [the Lord] is Byāp [all-pervasive]. Infinite expressions of Creation all procure from the One. Lovingly worship the One, and destruction of iniquities shall occur. Those who, with the beneficence of the Guru, truly understand this form of the One, says Guru Nānak Sahib, the One Prabhu will permeate radiantly within their heart-minds and bodies!
Guru Arjan Dev Sahib Māhārāj, Rāg Gaurī, Guru Granth Sahib, Ang 289
Just as millions of sparks arise from the fire and then converge within the fire once more, just as innumerable [specs of] dirt materialize and merge within the earth again, just as how from the ocean countless waves are produced, but all waves of the ocean are still considered the same body of water, so too did the Creator, in the form of the Viśv [all-pervading universe], manifested insentient and sentient entities who sprung forth [from the Lord], and will merge back again [after physical death]. ॥੧੭॥੮੭॥
Akāl Ustat, Dasam Granth Sāhib, pg. 14
Everything emanates from the One, so how can it be intrinsically false or even transient?
From a philosophical perspective, there can only be a single Necessary Existent in itself, and that alone is an absolutely self-sufficient being, since its Essence is absolutely simple and completely devoid of composition and plurality in every respect. Everything else save the First Truth or the Necessary in itself is an effect of the Necessary in itself, and is, therefore, dependent upon that reality both for the derivation of its existence, as well as the subsistence of its being. And since dependence implies limitation and essential contingency, thus, everything save the First Truth is essentially contingent with respect to existence.
Reality is false in this manner if we refuse to acknowledge its true origins: its dependence upon another for its existence, i.e. contingency is on the First Cause [Vaheguru], who emanates from the Nirgun to Sargun ParmAtma, as Gurbani states:
Recognise the Sāhib [Honorable Master], the Artisan who crafted this world and pervasively immersed within it, through the intricacies of Qudrat [the active creative force of all materiality]. Seek the Truth not in distance, and realize the Śabd [the scriptural and verbal divinity] within all bodies and hearts. Understand the Śabd, the composer of all Creation, as the Truth and not far from you. One finds Sukh [spiritual tranquility] only by meditatively visualizing Nām without which this play of human life is fruitless. Whosoever crafted the cosmos holds intimate knowledge [of its design], what can another say about it? The Creator of the world, the weaver of the web of Māyā [cosmic dualistic illusion], revere that entity alone as the true Sāhib॥੧॥ Oh Brothers! The one who is born within this world must arise and depart, for this Saṃsār is but an interlude of temporary physical existence. The True Lord has inscribed the verses of suffering and bliss upon each brow, written in congruence with the Karm of deeds. This script unfolds in harmony with one’s life, for whatever Karm they have committed, [The Maker] inscribes the experience of suffering and bliss in accordance. Abide by the Karm the Creator has impressed upon you. Never seek an alternative pursuit and be forever content with the Master’s decree. The emanating Creator [whilst immersed within Qudrat] is transcendent from Karm and the world, while all materiality is ensnared by the worldly attachments to Māyā. Only the Sovereign and his Huqam [Divine Order] is the liberator of such confinement. Evading His veneration, they declare, “Today or tomorrow, I shall worship Him,” only to find that the time of their Deaths has befallen them. Forgetting their Master, they are enslaved by their perceptions of duality॥੨॥The pathway to the abode of Yama [the Angel of Death] is indiscernible, for it is shrouded in complete desolation and darkness. There is an absence of water [to quench one’s thirst], cots and blankets [to ward off the cold], and a lack of variety of food [for physical sustenance]. Within this realm, the attainment of desirable food, refreshing cold water, presentable clothing, and ornamentation is unobtainable. With chains adorning their necks, the Jamdūt [Messengers of Death] loom above the heads of the restrained and strike them continuously, and no safe haven can be seen [to escape their torment]. From this moment forth, the seeds of one's noble deeds, sown in the soil of Karm, lie barren, refusing to sprout. They are laden with the burden of sins upon their weary heads and uselessly lament in regret. The only true consultation is this! No one is your friend but the Nām of Truth॥੩॥Oh Brothers! The true state of mourning dawns upon those who gather together, enveloped in the profound grief [of separation from their Master], while extolling the attributes and virtues of the Divine in sacred contemplation. Yet, those who weep whilst beguiled by the worldly grip of Māyā [cosmic dualistic illusion], know them as those who falsely perceive the world and its mundane affairs as true pursuits. This Saṃsār [realm of cyclic animation] is but a dream, its essence ephemeral; the tears shed within its illusionary web do not cleanse the impurity of the mind. Just as spectators are enthralled by the deceptive drama of the Bāzīgar [traditional acrobats] and they lose sight of reality amidst illusion; similarly, the material world is deceived by falsehood and Ahaṃkār [egoism]. He himself guides the world along the virtuous path, and He alone, omnipresent, is the bestower of righteous Karm. So says Guru Nānak Sāhib! Those who are immersed in Nām [the Divine mantric name] conferred by the perfect Guru, forever remain in Sahaj [spiritual tranquility] and are saved from the false lamentations [within Māyā] and the sorrows of the path of Yama॥੪॥੪॥
Rāg Vadhans, Mehallā 1, Guru Granth Sāhib, Ang 581
"Truth is One, people look at it from different perspectives."
The truth is objective, perspectives are subjective. Gurmat emphasizes that one relinquish the perspectival aspect on the path to truth so even this emotional appeal falls flat.
What exactly is hollow, when large portions of what u sent agree with Advaita Vedanta and use the same rhetoric? I am not even defending Advaita Vedanta in the way you are potraying, I merely just stating the obvious it is simply one (albeit useful) perspective on God. Nobody is accepting him as Guru or the final word as the original commenter was suggesting.
Nothing what u sent me contradicts what I said. Sikhi has the advaita vedantic perspective but also transcends it and also interesting you used sampardaic commentaries to make your case for you as well....
Your last quote literally affirms what I am saying:
"Oh Brothers! The true state of mourning dawns upon those who gather together, enveloped in the profound grief [of separation from their Master], while extolling the attributes and virtues of the Divine in sacred contemplation. Yet, those who weep whilst beguiled by the worldly grip of Māyā [cosmic dualistic illusion], know them as those who falsely perceive the world and its mundane affairs as true pursuits. This Saṃsār [realm of cyclic animation] is but a dream, its essence ephemeral; the tears shed within its illusionary web do not cleanse the impurity of the mind. Just as spectators are enthralled by the deceptive drama of the Bāzīgar [traditional acrobats] and they lose sight of reality amidst illusion"
Thing is the world is both true and false (i.e. appears to exist but does not) depending on the perspective you take, from advaita vedanta perspective (which is this perspective taken in this shabd) which is trying to figure out where does conciousness lie, where does it exist, it is perfectly reasonable to deny the appearance of the world because you witness the world flashing before you so how can you say it is eternal (sat)? This doesnt make you a "manmukh" for realising this lol otherwise why would Bani contain such passages that seem to the very same understanding? In fact this essence of enlightenment because you have essentially have realised what is sat and chit.
However you can go beyond this and affirm the world as well, because you realise while the world is appearance is false you can look back and realise it is still made from the same substance of Brahm so it can also be considered true hence the initial quote from akaal ustat. Do u see? These arent mutually exculsive, contradictory "manmukh" positions but rather they are talking about the same reality in different ways. Advaita vedanta is merely one interpretative framework/tool that emphasis' the world appearance wise is transistory (which again is true but their is another side of the coin that can be highlighted), in Sikhi you have to transcends these in general but they can be *helpful along the way*, this is essentially what constant references to ਨੇਤ ਨੇਤ in Bani are talking about. When one transcends the mundane philosophical intellectualisation of God, you realise higher quality virtue that directly pours from the Divine's conciousness into your very being (Brahmgian and it's qualities).
Gurbani is not one of these things where you easily weaponise for sectarian warfare as you are very much interested in doing, it highly sophisticated and has profound ability to explain the existence of other religions thus explain the phenomenon of religion and philosophy itself thus Sikhi explains for example why their are common spiritual truth and suggestions across the world, why each tradition seems to speak about similar state of enlightenment etc. This does not mean Sikhi believes all religions are all equal tho as they can each locus of religion can vary on efficiency and each religions social impact will vary positive or negative.
I will leave you with a quote that every sikh reads everyday which aptly summaries my position, take note of the first 2 lines which explain the position on advaita vedant but then following tells you transcend knowledge for "ਕੀਰਤਿ " :-
Kothaguru despite being a sampradaic calls out the whole Shankaracharya scam. Neither is he a framework for even impartially understanding non-dualism, Non-dualism is the Truth, and he develops his own framework based upon the Vedas that is contrary to Gurmat, and Kothaguru even showcases that actually, it is heterodox to the actual Vedānta that preceded him, which is why his family even attempted to destroy his works and burn it. The Vedas are not the truth Gurmat espouses.
Sectarian warfare has played a crucial role throughout Sikh history unless of course you subscribe to the boomer pedagogy of "governments not religions" are the root cause of conflict falsity so no wonder you would have issues on that point. And that Gurbani reference you give only describes how six schools of philosophies are related to one school. In no way or form is it any endorsement or even an advocacy for advait vedanta or its ultimate transcendence.
Maybe consider reading Kothaguru yourself to see his whole refutation of Advait Vedanta before unleashing your "debunks."
If indeed the whole exercise is to transcend advait because of its inferiority, you seem to be quite eager to die on its hill. Consider actually finding out what you are talking about before building elaborate arguments without any substance.
We are not universalists or perenniallists, we are moral absolutists and that Absolute is Akāl Purakh Vaheguru and Gurmat is the manner to fully merge back with Him. Teleologically, the transience of the world exists for the Manmukhs and ਸਾਕਤ, for the Gurmukh it is irrelevant because it serves us as a means to contemplate and worship our Lord and Master with no heed paid to the notions of "this world is false/not" as the only absolute position is that it is not false in Gurmat. Otherwise you are free to follow whatever hotch-potch system you adhere to.
I dont think I am dieing on any hill, I made my position pretty clear, I feel u are more interested in petty squabbles and jibes tbh my intial comment wasn't even to you lol. Do you expect people to roll over to you whenver you just start rambling? Notice as well, how you didnt actually engage with any points I made just went on your mindless rant.
Did I say religion can be stripped from government? Did u not read when I said "each religions social impact will vary positive or negative.", social impact will reach all the way to politics. I do think it is bit overplayed by nihlists tho.
Sikhi is definitely perenniallists, you literally said "what Gurbani reference you give only describes how six schools of philosophies are related to one school", what do u think perennialism is lol? Please dont tell me you are going to pretend that lots of Bhagats did not have seceterian religious identity which range from vaishnavism and sufism...I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
>"Teleologically, the transience of the world exists for the Manmukhs and ਸਾਕਤ"
So any plans on reading even your own Gurbani quotes from the intial reply? Any chance you will go to the Gurudwara and listen to ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਥਿਰੁ ਕਛੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੁਪਨੇ ਜਿਉ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥੫੦॥ any time soon?
Lol I present a pretty clear simple case of the application of Advaita vedanta in Gurmat as a tool but I also recognise Gurmat also goes beyond it too and but it just flies over your head completely, for your it has to be a clear rejection and nothing else, their can be no nuance, otherwise such nuance presents "hotch-potch system"😂maybe ur just failing to comprehend something so simple?
Would the atma/soul be nirgun or sargun? I assume nirgun, right?
You can go both ways. Vaheguru created it. For us even air has no form but then neither does the atma. Does it have a form for Vaheguru? Probably. Is it Nirgun for Vaheguru? Yes, no-arguments can be made both ways. Is it Nirgun for us? Yes, just like our intelligence.
So
Sargun= the tangible immanence (hukum, naam etc) that comes from nirgun
Nirgun= intangible transcendent
Or I have I understood this wrong?
Pretty much.
I always thought that line was referring to religious people who always fight about which religion is true. That they call each other’s religions false but don't even bother looking into them. If they had then they would’ve noticed how similar they are lololol.
That's stretching it but truth be told, the context here is to always introspect about why you believe what you believe and whether your daily actions reflect whatever you believe.
Arman, do you listen to our podcast?
What is equally laughable is how alleged conversion sites which seek to convert Sikhs, end up using the same fallacies. And, as usual, you have Sikhs trying to shout them down; expending valuable energy on something which is false from the start.
The world is transient lol do u think it is permanent? Their is nothing wrong with highlighting that. Non dualism is core to Sikhi, this article does not contradict that. Adi Shankaracharya provided one framework for understanding non-dualism. Sikhi does indeed transcend this framework (and lots of the same sampardaics dont even utilise fully + nothing can capture the entire aspects of Vaheguru) but aspects of the framework are useful for understanding the world. Truth is One, people look at it from different perspectives. One should be not so quick to dismiss, in fact you cannot dismiss it with such hasty anti-intellectualism.
With all due respect to your "debunking prowess" maybe consider familiarizing yourself with Gurmat ontology before making a stand for Shankaracharya's hollow rhetoric.
The world is transient for Manmukhs because they envision it as ontologically separate from the One, but in Sikh Ontology, this world, if correctly perceived, is not false, but true.
Giani Balwant Singh Kothaguru states the following:
"According to the teachings of the Guru Granth Sahib, Maya is not independent; it is subordinate to Waheguru and is in accordance to his Huqam."
For Gurmukhs, Maya is a slave to them, so that they can engage in Dharm. However, if we believe in the idea of emanation, then this world is not false or even transient [if seen properly].
There can be nothing more manifest and luminous, than Existence, which is self-existing, and also existentiates all [contingent] essences; Existence is self-subsistent, and also renders all others subsistent. Being subsistent in itself, it needs no cause for its subsistence, albeit everything else is dependent upon existence for its subsistence and reality. It is existence that bestows reality upon all things, without itself deriving its reality from any foreign source.
Therefore, this world cannot be intrinsically false or even transient. Even Gurbānī elaborates:
ਏਕੋ ਜਪਿ ਏਕੋ ਸਾਲਾਹਿ॥ ਏਕੁ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਏਕੋ ਮਨ ਆਹਿ॥ ਏਕਸ ਕੇ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਉ ਅਨੰਤ॥ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਜਾਪਿ ਏਕ ਭਗਵੰਤ॥ ਏਕੋ ਏਕੁ ਏਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ॥ ਪੂਰਨ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਬਿਆਪਿ॥ ਅਨਿਕ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ ਏਕ ਤੇ ਭਏ॥ ਏਕੁ ਅਰਾਧਿ ਪਰਾਛਤ ਗਏ॥ ਮਨ ਤਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਏਕੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਾਤਾ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਇਕੁ ਜਾਤਾ॥੮॥੧੯॥
Introspectively immerse in Jap and Salāhé [eulogical praise] of the One. Only supplicatingly invoke the One, and only the One should the heart-mind desire. Endlessly cantilate the excellencies of the One, and mentally and physically ruminate on the One Bhagvant [Supreme Master]. All of Creation is a manifestation of the One Hari [the destroyer of spiritual impediments]. The ultimate realized form of Prabhu [the Lord] is Byāp [all-pervasive]. Infinite expressions of Creation all procure from the One. Lovingly worship the One, and destruction of iniquities shall occur. Those who, with the beneficence of the Guru, truly understand this form of the One, says Guru Nānak Sahib, the One Prabhu will permeate radiantly within their heart-minds and bodies!
Guru Arjan Dev Sahib Māhārāj, Rāg Gaurī, Guru Granth Sahib, Ang 289
In Akāl Ustat it states:
ਜੈਸੇ ਏਕ ਆਗ ਤੇ ਕਨੂਕਾ ਕੋਟ ਆਗ ਉਠੇ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਹੁਇ ਕੈ ਫੇਰਿ ਆਗ ਮੈ ਮਿਲਾਹਿਂਗੇ ॥ ਜੈਸੇ ਏਕ ਧੂਰ ਤੇ ਅਨੇਕ ਧੂਰ ਪੂਰਤ ਹੈ ਧੂਰ ਕੇ ਕਨੂਕਾ ਫੇਰ ਧੂਰ ਹੀ ਸਮਾਹਿਂਗੇ ॥ ਜੈਸੇ ਏਕ ਨਦ ਤੇ ਤਰੰਗ ਕੋਟ ਉਪਜਤ ਹੈਂ ਪਾਨ ਕੇ ਤਰੰਗ ਸਬੈ ਪਾਨ ਹੀ ਕਹਾਹਿਂਗੇ ॥ ਤੈਸੇ ਬਿਸ੍ਵ ਰੂਪ ਤੇ ਅਭੂਤ ਭੂਤ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਹੁਇ ਤਾਹੀ ਤੇ ਉਪਜ ਸਬੈ ਤਾਹੀ ਮੈ ਸਮਾਹਿਂਗੇ ॥੧੭॥੮੭॥
Just as millions of sparks arise from the fire and then converge within the fire once more, just as innumerable [specs of] dirt materialize and merge within the earth again, just as how from the ocean countless waves are produced, but all waves of the ocean are still considered the same body of water, so too did the Creator, in the form of the Viśv [all-pervading universe], manifested insentient and sentient entities who sprung forth [from the Lord], and will merge back again [after physical death]. ॥੧੭॥੮੭॥
Akāl Ustat, Dasam Granth Sāhib, pg. 14
Everything emanates from the One, so how can it be intrinsically false or even transient?
From a philosophical perspective, there can only be a single Necessary Existent in itself, and that alone is an absolutely self-sufficient being, since its Essence is absolutely simple and completely devoid of composition and plurality in every respect. Everything else save the First Truth or the Necessary in itself is an effect of the Necessary in itself, and is, therefore, dependent upon that reality both for the derivation of its existence, as well as the subsistence of its being. And since dependence implies limitation and essential contingency, thus, everything save the First Truth is essentially contingent with respect to existence.
Reality is false in this manner if we refuse to acknowledge its true origins: its dependence upon another for its existence, i.e. contingency is on the First Cause [Vaheguru], who emanates from the Nirgun to Sargun ParmAtma, as Gurbani states:
ਜਿਨਿ ਜਗੁ ਸਿਰਜਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ਸੋ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਜਾਣੋਵਾ॥ਸਚੜਾ ਦੂਰਿ ਨ ਭਾਲੀਐ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਪਛਾਣੋਵਾ॥ਸਚੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਪਛਾਣਹੁ ਦੂਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਏਹ ਰਚਨਾ ਰਾਚੀ॥ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਏ ਤਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਏ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਪਿੜ ਕਾਚੀ॥ਜਿਨਿ ਥਾਪੀ ਬਿਧਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ਕਿਆ ਕੋ ਕਹੈ ਵਖਾਣੋ॥ਜਿਨਿ ਜਗੁ ਥਾਪਿ ਵਤਾਇਆ ਜਾਲੋੁ ਸੋ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਪਰਵਾਣੋ॥੧॥ਬਾਬਾ ਆਇਆ ਹੈ ਉਠਿ ਚਲਣਾ ਅਧ ਪੰਧੈ ਹੈ ਸੰਸਾਰੋਵਾ॥ਸਿਰਿ ਸਿਰਿ ਸਚੜੈ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਦੁਖੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਪੁਰਬਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੋਵਾ॥ਦੁਖੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਦੀਆ ਜੇਹਾ ਕੀਆ ਸੋ ਨਿਬਹੈ ਜੀਅ ਨਾਲੇ॥ਜੇਹੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਾਏ ਕਰਤਾ ਦੂਜੀ ਕਾਰ ਨ ਭਾਲੇ॥ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਾਲਮੁ ਧੰਧੈ ਬਾਧੀ ਕਰਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਛਡਾਵਣਹਾਰੋ॥ਅਜੁ ਕਲਿ ਕਰਦਿਆ ਕਾਲੁ ਬਿਆਪੈ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਵਿਕਾਰੋ॥੨॥ਜਮ ਮਾਰਗ ਪੰਥੁ ਨ ਸੁਝਈ ਉਝੜੁ ਅੰਧ ਗੁਬਾਰੋਵਾ॥ਨਾ ਜਲੁ ਲੇਫ ਤੁਲਾਈਆ ਨਾ ਭੋਜਨ ਪਰਕਾਰੋਵਾ॥ਭੋਜਨ ਭਾਉ ਨ ਠੰਢਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਨਾ ਕਾਪੜੁ ਸੀਗਾਰੋ॥ਗਲਿ ਸੰਗਲੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਮਾਰੇ ਊਭੌ ਨਾ ਦੀਸੈ ਘਰ ਬਾਰੋ॥ਇਬ ਕੇ ਰਾਹੇ ਜੰਮਨਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਪਛੁਤਾਣੇ ਸਿਰਿ ਭਾਰੋ॥ਬਿਨੁ ਸਾਚੇ ਕੋ ਬੇਲੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਸਾਚਾ ਏਹੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੋ॥੩॥ਬਾਬਾ ਰੋਵਹਿ ਰਵਹਿ ਸੁ ਜਾਣੀਅਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਰੋਵੈ ਗੁਣ ਸਾਰੇਵਾ॥ਰੋਵੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੁਠੜੀ ਧੰਧੜਾ ਰੋਵਣਹਾਰੇਵਾ॥ਧੰਧਾ ਰੋਵੈ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਧੋਵੈ ਸੁਪਨੰਤਰੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੋ॥ਜਿਉ ਬਾਜੀਗਰੁ ਭਰਮੈ ਭੂਲੈ ਝੂਠਿ ਮੁਠੀ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੋ॥ਆਪੇ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪਾਵਣਹਾਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਏ॥ਨਾਮਿ ਰਤੇ ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਰਾਖੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਹਜਿ ਸੁਭਾਏ॥੪॥੪॥
Recognise the Sāhib [Honorable Master], the Artisan who crafted this world and pervasively immersed within it, through the intricacies of Qudrat [the active creative force of all materiality]. Seek the Truth not in distance, and realize the Śabd [the scriptural and verbal divinity] within all bodies and hearts. Understand the Śabd, the composer of all Creation, as the Truth and not far from you. One finds Sukh [spiritual tranquility] only by meditatively visualizing Nām without which this play of human life is fruitless. Whosoever crafted the cosmos holds intimate knowledge [of its design], what can another say about it? The Creator of the world, the weaver of the web of Māyā [cosmic dualistic illusion], revere that entity alone as the true Sāhib॥੧॥ Oh Brothers! The one who is born within this world must arise and depart, for this Saṃsār is but an interlude of temporary physical existence. The True Lord has inscribed the verses of suffering and bliss upon each brow, written in congruence with the Karm of deeds. This script unfolds in harmony with one’s life, for whatever Karm they have committed, [The Maker] inscribes the experience of suffering and bliss in accordance. Abide by the Karm the Creator has impressed upon you. Never seek an alternative pursuit and be forever content with the Master’s decree. The emanating Creator [whilst immersed within Qudrat] is transcendent from Karm and the world, while all materiality is ensnared by the worldly attachments to Māyā. Only the Sovereign and his Huqam [Divine Order] is the liberator of such confinement. Evading His veneration, they declare, “Today or tomorrow, I shall worship Him,” only to find that the time of their Deaths has befallen them. Forgetting their Master, they are enslaved by their perceptions of duality॥੨॥The pathway to the abode of Yama [the Angel of Death] is indiscernible, for it is shrouded in complete desolation and darkness. There is an absence of water [to quench one’s thirst], cots and blankets [to ward off the cold], and a lack of variety of food [for physical sustenance]. Within this realm, the attainment of desirable food, refreshing cold water, presentable clothing, and ornamentation is unobtainable. With chains adorning their necks, the Jamdūt [Messengers of Death] loom above the heads of the restrained and strike them continuously, and no safe haven can be seen [to escape their torment]. From this moment forth, the seeds of one's noble deeds, sown in the soil of Karm, lie barren, refusing to sprout. They are laden with the burden of sins upon their weary heads and uselessly lament in regret. The only true consultation is this! No one is your friend but the Nām of Truth॥੩॥Oh Brothers! The true state of mourning dawns upon those who gather together, enveloped in the profound grief [of separation from their Master], while extolling the attributes and virtues of the Divine in sacred contemplation. Yet, those who weep whilst beguiled by the worldly grip of Māyā [cosmic dualistic illusion], know them as those who falsely perceive the world and its mundane affairs as true pursuits. This Saṃsār [realm of cyclic animation] is but a dream, its essence ephemeral; the tears shed within its illusionary web do not cleanse the impurity of the mind. Just as spectators are enthralled by the deceptive drama of the Bāzīgar [traditional acrobats] and they lose sight of reality amidst illusion; similarly, the material world is deceived by falsehood and Ahaṃkār [egoism]. He himself guides the world along the virtuous path, and He alone, omnipresent, is the bestower of righteous Karm. So says Guru Nānak Sāhib! Those who are immersed in Nām [the Divine mantric name] conferred by the perfect Guru, forever remain in Sahaj [spiritual tranquility] and are saved from the false lamentations [within Māyā] and the sorrows of the path of Yama॥੪॥੪॥
Rāg Vadhans, Mehallā 1, Guru Granth Sāhib, Ang 581
"Truth is One, people look at it from different perspectives."
The truth is objective, perspectives are subjective. Gurmat emphasizes that one relinquish the perspectival aspect on the path to truth so even this emotional appeal falls flat.
What exactly is hollow, when large portions of what u sent agree with Advaita Vedanta and use the same rhetoric? I am not even defending Advaita Vedanta in the way you are potraying, I merely just stating the obvious it is simply one (albeit useful) perspective on God. Nobody is accepting him as Guru or the final word as the original commenter was suggesting.
Nothing what u sent me contradicts what I said. Sikhi has the advaita vedantic perspective but also transcends it and also interesting you used sampardaic commentaries to make your case for you as well....
Your last quote literally affirms what I am saying:
"Oh Brothers! The true state of mourning dawns upon those who gather together, enveloped in the profound grief [of separation from their Master], while extolling the attributes and virtues of the Divine in sacred contemplation. Yet, those who weep whilst beguiled by the worldly grip of Māyā [cosmic dualistic illusion], know them as those who falsely perceive the world and its mundane affairs as true pursuits. This Saṃsār [realm of cyclic animation] is but a dream, its essence ephemeral; the tears shed within its illusionary web do not cleanse the impurity of the mind. Just as spectators are enthralled by the deceptive drama of the Bāzīgar [traditional acrobats] and they lose sight of reality amidst illusion"
Thing is the world is both true and false (i.e. appears to exist but does not) depending on the perspective you take, from advaita vedanta perspective (which is this perspective taken in this shabd) which is trying to figure out where does conciousness lie, where does it exist, it is perfectly reasonable to deny the appearance of the world because you witness the world flashing before you so how can you say it is eternal (sat)? This doesnt make you a "manmukh" for realising this lol otherwise why would Bani contain such passages that seem to the very same understanding? In fact this essence of enlightenment because you have essentially have realised what is sat and chit.
However you can go beyond this and affirm the world as well, because you realise while the world is appearance is false you can look back and realise it is still made from the same substance of Brahm so it can also be considered true hence the initial quote from akaal ustat. Do u see? These arent mutually exculsive, contradictory "manmukh" positions but rather they are talking about the same reality in different ways. Advaita vedanta is merely one interpretative framework/tool that emphasis' the world appearance wise is transistory (which again is true but their is another side of the coin that can be highlighted), in Sikhi you have to transcends these in general but they can be *helpful along the way*, this is essentially what constant references to ਨੇਤ ਨੇਤ in Bani are talking about. When one transcends the mundane philosophical intellectualisation of God, you realise higher quality virtue that directly pours from the Divine's conciousness into your very being (Brahmgian and it's qualities).
Gurbani is not one of these things where you easily weaponise for sectarian warfare as you are very much interested in doing, it highly sophisticated and has profound ability to explain the existence of other religions thus explain the phenomenon of religion and philosophy itself thus Sikhi explains for example why their are common spiritual truth and suggestions across the world, why each tradition seems to speak about similar state of enlightenment etc. This does not mean Sikhi believes all religions are all equal tho as they can each locus of religion can vary on efficiency and each religions social impact will vary positive or negative.
I will leave you with a quote that every sikh reads everyday which aptly summaries my position, take note of the first 2 lines which explain the position on advaita vedant but then following tells you transcend knowledge for "ਕੀਰਤਿ " :-
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
ਛਿਅ ਘਰ ਛਿਅ ਗੁਰ ਛਿਅ ਉਪਦੇਸ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸ ਅਨੇਕ ॥੧॥ ਬਾਬਾ ਜੈ ਘਰਿ ਕਰਤੇ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਸੋ ਘਰੁ ਰਾਖੁ ਵਡਾਈ ਤੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਵਿਸੁਏ ਚਸਿਆ ਘੜੀਆ ਪਹਰਾ ਥਿਤੀ ਵਾਰੀ ਮਾਹੁ ਹੋਆ ॥ ਸੂਰਜੁ ਏਕੋ ਰੁਤਿ ਅਨੇਕ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਤੇ ਕੇ ਕੇਤੇ ਵੇਸ ॥੨॥੨॥
- Sohila Sahib
Kothaguru despite being a sampradaic calls out the whole Shankaracharya scam. Neither is he a framework for even impartially understanding non-dualism, Non-dualism is the Truth, and he develops his own framework based upon the Vedas that is contrary to Gurmat, and Kothaguru even showcases that actually, it is heterodox to the actual Vedānta that preceded him, which is why his family even attempted to destroy his works and burn it. The Vedas are not the truth Gurmat espouses.
Sectarian warfare has played a crucial role throughout Sikh history unless of course you subscribe to the boomer pedagogy of "governments not religions" are the root cause of conflict falsity so no wonder you would have issues on that point. And that Gurbani reference you give only describes how six schools of philosophies are related to one school. In no way or form is it any endorsement or even an advocacy for advait vedanta or its ultimate transcendence.
Maybe consider reading Kothaguru yourself to see his whole refutation of Advait Vedanta before unleashing your "debunks."
If indeed the whole exercise is to transcend advait because of its inferiority, you seem to be quite eager to die on its hill. Consider actually finding out what you are talking about before building elaborate arguments without any substance.
We are not universalists or perenniallists, we are moral absolutists and that Absolute is Akāl Purakh Vaheguru and Gurmat is the manner to fully merge back with Him. Teleologically, the transience of the world exists for the Manmukhs and ਸਾਕਤ, for the Gurmukh it is irrelevant because it serves us as a means to contemplate and worship our Lord and Master with no heed paid to the notions of "this world is false/not" as the only absolute position is that it is not false in Gurmat. Otherwise you are free to follow whatever hotch-potch system you adhere to.
I dont think I am dieing on any hill, I made my position pretty clear, I feel u are more interested in petty squabbles and jibes tbh my intial comment wasn't even to you lol. Do you expect people to roll over to you whenver you just start rambling? Notice as well, how you didnt actually engage with any points I made just went on your mindless rant.
Did I say religion can be stripped from government? Did u not read when I said "each religions social impact will vary positive or negative.", social impact will reach all the way to politics. I do think it is bit overplayed by nihlists tho.
Sikhi is definitely perenniallists, you literally said "what Gurbani reference you give only describes how six schools of philosophies are related to one school", what do u think perennialism is lol? Please dont tell me you are going to pretend that lots of Bhagats did not have seceterian religious identity which range from vaishnavism and sufism...I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
>"Teleologically, the transience of the world exists for the Manmukhs and ਸਾਕਤ"
So any plans on reading even your own Gurbani quotes from the intial reply? Any chance you will go to the Gurudwara and listen to ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਥਿਰੁ ਕਛੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੁਪਨੇ ਜਿਉ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥੫੦॥ any time soon?
Lol I present a pretty clear simple case of the application of Advaita vedanta in Gurmat as a tool but I also recognise Gurmat also goes beyond it too and but it just flies over your head completely, for your it has to be a clear rejection and nothing else, their can be no nuance, otherwise such nuance presents "hotch-potch system"😂maybe ur just failing to comprehend something so simple?